Hello from Josquin

Discussion in 'Member introductions' started by Josquin, May 12, 2014.

  1. Iversen

    Iversen Member VIP member

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    Another moderator at HTLAL has just banned your account as Lassus, and yes, the reason was a one-liner aimed at Mark. I definitely don't agree with this decision, but the moderator team functions as a team and as a matter of principle stands behind the decisions of each of its members so there isn't really anything I can do about it. Except leaving HTAL of course, but we are not quite there yet.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
    Wise owl chick, Big_Dog and Josquin like this.
  2. Josquin

    Josquin Member

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    Thanks for the information, Iversen!

    That's very disappointing to hear, especially because my comment on Mark was rather sarcastic than offensive and, let's be honest, he isn't the friendliest person on the forum either. Unfortunately, some people have a problem with irony and sarcasm, so this might have been the problem here.

    Am I allowed to create a new account or am I banned for life now? I contacted the admin about the reactivation of my old account, but, as you predicted, he hasn't answered yet and probably isn't going to do so either. If both of my accounts stay deactivated and I'm not allowed to create a third one, this might be the end of my presence at HTLAL. I know a lot of people who will be rather unhappy about that and I must say I'll be one of them.
  3. Penelope

    Penelope New Member

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    What comment was that? What on earth is going on?!
  4. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    One has to wonder whether a couple of the more ban-happy moderators on HTAL aren't sock-puppet accounts of other persons, used to moderate without their main identities being associated with same. Especially since they seem to have been long time members who rarely post.

    The position of backing other moderators no matter what is a common one on internet forums, else there would be too much internal division. The difference with HTLAL though is that such team actions don't extend to bannings, i.e. a moderator first floating the idea in the moderator forum and getting a consensus agreement in advance, and the fact that there is no appeal since the only admin there no longer cares much about the forum unless it goes down for technical reasons.

    Over time a toxic moderator culture can adversely impact a forum, and it can go down slowly for non-technical reasons. What is somewhat difficult to understand is why moderators would continue to feel they have a moral duty to abide by the admin's wishes, when he no longer fulfills his end of the contract, implied if not explicit.
    Wise owl chick and Josquin like this.
  5. Josquin

    Josquin Member

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    It happened in the team thread of Team Катюша. Cristina posted her May Challenge and said she had problems expressing herself freely in Russian. Mark answered he felt like this in every language but Russian, so I answered: "I have heard studying helps. Maybe you should try it some time."

    I don't know what's so offensive about that that I deserve to be banned. I rather thought it was a bit cheeky and sarcastic, because Mark never talks about his own language studies. Instead, he corrects other people's Russian (whether they like it or not) and trolls everybody he doesn't like, so I thought it might be better for him to concentrate on his own shortcomings.

    Obviously, Mark didn't like that and reported the message. One of the moderators decided to ban me, probably because s/he only saw my "Newbie" status and thought I was some kind of troll trying to disturb the eternal peace in the forum.

    It's rather ridiculous if you ask me and borders on censorship, but there's nothing I can do about it. My only hope is that I'll be allowed to create a new profile. If I don't, I can't return to HTLAL.


    @Peregrinus: Thanks a lot for your insightful post! I wholeheartedly agree with you.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
  6. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    Regardless of your intentions, it was sarcastic and unnecessary. However, if your postings on the forum consisted primarily of such postings then the collective body of same might be ban-worthy. The past history of interaction between you two could also legitimately come into play, and one needs to try to avoid being baited directly or indirectly. I think this forum has an ignore option, so it would be easy to not even read the comments of someone, but I personally doubt I will ever use that feature. Personally if I were a moderator there I would ignore complaints about such comments made only occasionally, as I would not take too seriously a poster who was so thin-skinned to make such complaints.

    Heavy handed moderation with no transparency or discussion by the moderators leads to bad results. Hopefully the Big Dog here will be more bark than bite :).
  7. Josquin

    Josquin Member

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    Well, taking into account that Mark had got me banned a few days before this incident, it wasn't completely uncalled for... I had 1.800 posts, 1.300 votes, several good friends and their wonderful PMs, and I lost all of that because of a stubborn guy who can't behave himself and blames other people for his problems. How am I supposed to react? He has been trolling other members for years and was never punished and I say something sassy once and get banned. I think this is truly unfair and it's hard to stay calm when something like that happens.

    But other than that, you're naturally completely right, Peregrinus!
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2014
  8. Penelope

    Penelope New Member

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    Surely you can open a new account, but make sure that noone can ban you as easily again. I mean, how easy is it to ban a member? Just by reporting a newbie once and a member three times? I don't understand how easily you got kicked out twice, without warning.
  9. Solfrid Cristina

    Solfrid Cristina Member VIP member

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    I am apalled. This really can't go on. We need Josquin as head of our team. I'll do everything I can to help, though right now I am feeling rather helpless. What on earth is happening to our beloved forum? Thank God this place exists, so we have an alternative.
    BAnna, Big_Dog, Josquin and 1 other person like this.
  10. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    You're not being sarcastic now are you :)?

    I had no idea of the backstory here as HTLAL is such a big forum that one could never read all the posts. The problem with a guy like you describe is that a sophisticated troll can harass with unwanted "help" and comments in ways that are not obviously harassment to others, in order to bait others into actions/comments that may go over the line. His passive-aggressive actions in continuing to reply to you and then complaining about your comments should indicate to others that he is indeed trolling. Given the situation there with an absentee admin I wouldn't hope for any change though.

    Hopefully you'll always be welcome here and make new friends. Over time more of them just might gravitate here. I guess we're kind of like the land of misfit language learners here :) (reference to land of misfit toys in Rudolf the Rednose Reindeer if you're not familiar with it -C2 cultural reference for English learners!).
  11. Josquin

    Josquin Member

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    Thank you, guys! I'm overwhelmed by your support! :)

    @Peregrinus: I wasn't being sarcastic. I meant what I said. "Sophisticated troll" might be a good description of said person's behaviour. Anyway, it's good to have this place as a resort.
  12. biTsar

    biTsar Active Member VIP member

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    Your sentiments ring true, Solfrid. I enjoyed that other forum quite a bit and then abruptly it all came to an end for me a few years back. The place had just been under a prolonged spam attack and I had dutifully reported as many spam postings as I could as a small gesture of giving back to the community, but it was for naught; I went and got myself banned. A warning would have been nicer ! I wish the moderators could experience being terminated, feel what that is like, then maybe the procedure of banning would be considered more judiciously. Dismember a cat and you lose the meow and the purr, dismember a forum and you risk destroying its soul.

    At the skeptical forums I visit and comment at moderation and banning are so rare I can count the number of banned participants on the fingers of one hand over a period of 5 years. And these are hugely popular places. Moderators are present and and accounted for, but actually it is more frequently the members of the forum that are the ones who rally around trolls and call them to account over their ideas or lack thereof. At these forums a person has to try very hard to get banned, gadflies and flies in the ointment are well tolerated even over a long period of time, but their reputation becomes stink and this is apparent to everyone reading a post's comments. Sort of a public shaming takes place. Generally these trolls give up after a period of time, their Sisyphusean task (whatever that might be) loses its lustre for them. But if things become intolerable for the forum, the blatant perpetrator who is by this time getting on nearly everyone else's nerves gets a public warning and receives a clear description of what they are doing wrong for their consideration. Only a continuation of same thereafter merits a ban. Not saying that this level of pain tolerance is possible on all forums, just saying that it works this way elsewhere and seems to me more democratic, transparent, and less likely to cause harm.

    Frankly, nobody online much bothers me, I see each of us as characters in a novel, and you can't populate literature exclusively with obsequious and demure little mealy mouths. There's got to be some sparks generated and unpredictable conflict between characters or else you haven't written a novel, you've created a tractor manual. There's a place for those too, I suppose.
  13. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    I'm shooting for a no bark/no bite policy :D
  14. kikenyoy

    kikenyoy Administrator Staff Member

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    Same for me. I only plan to delete obvious spam. In the extremely unlikely event I ever use a moderator action on a legitimate member I'll post what I did and why for everyone to see and discuss.
    Wise owl chick likes this.
  15. Wise owl chick

    Wise owl chick Active Member

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    It's not new. New York Eric has deleted and banned so many people that for sure he doesn't know the number, some thousands. the secret hidden banning prevent that the other people discover (active on yoru profile but blocked from the PMs and impossible to post).

    I bet a trillion £ and $ that NYE or Rhian banned Josquin.
  16. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    It would be easier to say either £1.59 trillion or $2.67 trillion [at current exchange rates]. That is if you meant both, instead of either/or. But wait a minute. Didn't the old British way of counting used to mean that a trillion equalled a million million million, but now they use the US way of just a million million?

    And hey you're not fooling anyone. We know you don't have that much money. I mean if you did you could wipe out the national debt of a country and be proclaimed king. But you do have a life. Are you willing to bet that? :D
  17. BAnna

    BAnna Active Member VIP member

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    So sorry to hear about this, Josquin. You were an outstanding contributor to HTLAL. If I recall correctly, your log was selected as one of the best on the site. I hope you find a new home here and also get the issue resolved there to your satisfaction. What a frustrating and annoying experience.
    Josquin likes this.
  18. Wise owl chick

    Wise owl chick Active Member

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    I mean either or or both, wihtout maximum or € or ¥ I don't mind at all. Or all the countries' national debt as well.

    It's not necessary to have the money because I know that new York Eric has deleted Josquin. I wouldn't know if it was Patuco, NYE or Rhian because they all love to ban and delete and their power , but Patuco doesnt visit since 2012, and Rhian since the middle of May. Therefore NYE.

    It's disgusting and nasty how they ban on HTLAL - they don't discuss with the other mods or have justification at all, only think "I want to ban some people today, ok, today I will ban person a,b,c,d,e,f,gh,i,j,k,l "

    When it's the secret hidden method then the other mods and other people can't see that the person was banned!!! Also, they have some favourites and others who they hate. For example, Patuco hated me and wanted to ban me all the time. Probably NYE hate Josquin but he like Mark.

    I wouldn't be proclaimed king because I'm a girl hahahaha.
  19. hrhenry

    hrhenry Member VIP member

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    You know, I was just thinking about how different HTLAL is now from when I joined in... 2010(?) The difference is night and day. There used to be so much activity, now hardly any. Even in the logs there isn't as much activity, comparatively speaking.

    R.
    ==
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  20. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    By the way, welcome to the forum hrhenry!

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