Fluent in 3 Months... by Benny Lewis

Discussion in 'Product Reviews' started by kikenyoy, Mar 20, 2014.

  1. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    BTW, has Benny learned all the languages he intends (to try to) learn? Is he out of missions? Or is he just too busy promoting his book, premium website etc., to learn any new ones? Does anyone know if he generally only does one mission per year or something?
  2. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    Last I heard, he was going to spend this year trying to improve in his existing languages, rather than add new ones. Also, he is publicly teaching his gf to speak esperanto, and doing his book tour, so those are major time draws.
  3. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    I believe I've found the source of his nonsense about Russian/Cyrillic being "phonetic" -- it's a guest post on his blog. That surely casts a lot of doubt about the quality of material in his book. Pretty poor "research" technique there....

    (Actually, the article isn't dated, but the first comment was only 3 months ago, so it maybe wasn't the source....)
  4. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    Well that goes with Cainntear's previous comments about moving goalposts and not being transparent at to what he does to learn a language. Obviously, and commendably, he keeps working on his languages. But just as obviously, his current proficiency with any one of them is not at all representative of what he achieved with his mission for a given language. Only perhaps a youtube video (unedited) made immediately after a mission would be indicative of the results of his 3 month mission method. And the criticisms he has received are likely the reason for spending time buttressing his current languages instead of venturing on a new mission.
  5. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    Quite possibly -- not only the criticism for current languages, but the recent failures with hard languages, and the worrying fear that the only "big" languages left are equally hard ones. One thing that surprises me is that he's continuing to insist that there's no such thing as a hard language, given how his level of success in various languages seems to match quite well with the easy vs hard expectations....
  6. hrhenry

    hrhenry Member VIP member

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    At least in the past, whatever he was trying to learn was dictated by his travel destination, from what I understand.

    Now that he's got a girlfriend and he's focusing on his book, it's totally understandable that he'd not take on another language.

    It would be nice if he started posting his experiences with taking one of his weaker languages (meaning any non-romance language) to a higher level. I doubt we'll see that, though. That kind of info is a tough sell for beginning language learners, which is clearly his audience, even according to him.

    R.
    ==
  7. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    On HTLAL is a question of a type often found there, asking how to learn a language very fast: Learning Mandarin Chinese in 7 Weeks. The first response there is hilarious and applicable to this discussion :).

    I hope Michel1020 doesn't mind my quoting him here, and I hope he finds us here.
  8. Expugnator

    Expugnator Member

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    I've read the book and I expected more tips for progressing from B1...maybe it was saved for spinoffs?
    As for the emphasis on 'Speak from day 1', I have a growing feeling that practicing speaking helps you learn how to...speak.
    That is, I've been working on languages such as Georgian that I started from scratch. That level Benny invites you to reach 'in three months' has already been reached by me long ago in Georgian. If I kept practicing conversation that wouldn't reverse into my 'reading skills'. For these, I still need to work hard on a language that has little vocabulary discount. So, Benny's tips are valid for the first months of learning, but afterwards you need many more consistent approaches. In my case, I reach that conversational level Benny advises on without even noticing while still aiming at reading, so...
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  9. pensulo

    pensulo Member VIP member

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    Thanks for linking to this thread Big_Dog, I hope no one minds me somewhat necro-posting here..

    I generally try to think the best of people, so while I can see here why some are fairly critical of him, I am probably not as much. I have found a lot of places where he doesn't get any love - hell I've seen on a forum some people claiming that he probably isn't even Irish, but I try to be less critical and cynical when I can. I tend to try to frame people in terms of their cultural background and their personalities (broadly speaking, introverts vs extroverts) before I assume something they say or do is necessarily something negative like being deceitful et cetera. As I kinda mentioned in another thread, Benny strikes me as an extrovert - language learning is all about people and having experiences with them, hence his speak from day 1 philosophy. It's very extroverted of him. Along the same lines is his aura of inspiration, extroverts tend to be driven by external motivation and he tries to give that. His general aura to me is that of a puppy dog freaking out in excitement that he gets to go out for a walk. Benny is excited about language learning, the successes he's had and he wants to share that with the world.

    When I as an introvert say "fluent" I would be very precise in my definition because I am interested in rigor. I would be inclined to learn a language the "right" way by across the board developing my abilities and ensuring I have a good grasp of the grammar to boot. In other words, I am more inclined to academic standards. In general my approach, and the way that I market myself would be very different.

    While I'm sure he is being inspirational for some, and I do think he legitimately desires to be inspirational - I think his message is harmful. Luca for example says it takes him 18 months to 2 years to get fluent with a language and that he is very much at a beginner level for the first 6 months+. Let's assume that's a decent enough of a time frame, how dejected would be if you were still saying "My name is pensulo, I live in X." while Benny appears to be fluent in the same time period? For a lot of people they might end up giving up because they consider their efforts worthless. Let's not forget the fact that he pretty much throws everything bar conversational ability under the bus, which most people won't do - especially with languages like Chinese or Japanese which he has learnt. Also, let's not forget his actual abilities after his learning stints - there are many ways to test language ability, but for me it's simple: If you say "umm.." or "ahh.." after every sentence or so in a regular conversation then you are still translating phrases in your mind and/or searching for words and you're far from fluent. It's still a really good achievement no doubt, but definitely not fluent.

    Also, while I understand that he is trying to be positive by claiming there are no hard languages - you can generally say that those from western language groups will find eastern ones harder and vice versa. Even further, those within your language group will be easier than those outside of it. I don't think such claims are inaccurate, or even necessarily being negative - it's just about setting realistic goals. When I study Esperanto there are a lot of words which are familiar to me as an English speaker and I can hinge off of. For example, my user name means "thinker" based on the verb pensi which means "to think". This to me is very similar to the word pensive which has a related meaning. In Serbian however, most words I encounter I have no English words to hinge off of, and I generally have to make up little stories to remember the words.

    Anyways, sorry for the long post but that's basically my 2 cents on Benny - seem's like a nice guy trying to do some good, but I think he probably does less good than he thinks he does.
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  10. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    Welcome to the forum! There are not many of here yet so don't feel shy about bumping older threads from before you were here.

    If Benny did not have a financial interest in what he does and which drives him to have a low bar definition of "fluent" with little regard to proficiency, then a more charitable view of him would be warranted. But as it is, he mostly is interested in doing good for himself financially.
  11. pensulo

    pensulo Member VIP member

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    Thanks for the welcome :)

    Sure, and you may well be right that he's doing it all for financial gain but as I mention, I try to think the best of people (especially as I tend toward cynicism myself) so I will give him a little slack even though I do not agree with how he presents himself and his language abilities.
  12. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    The only reason that I and other criticize him is because potential purchasers could be duped into buying his products not realizing that his "system", at least as explained to others, cannot result in much of an ability with language. If they want to be motivated that is fine, but Benny also promises "fluent".
  13. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    I can't speak for you, but I have several reasons to criticize him.
  14. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    That's a description of 99% of the human race.

    Yesterday, on my way to work, a guy started talking to me in the street. His name was Tinga, and he was a salesman trying to recruit additional salesmen for a Japanese "health and wellness" company. I knew two things from the way he was talking:
    1. The stuff was pseudo-sciencey nonsense.
    2. He genuinely believed that the products improved people's health, and consequently their lives.
    Now of course he must be on commission, but to him, that's his reward for doing the good work he's doing -- why shouldn't he be rewarded for improving people's quality of life?

    The problem is that Tinga is in no position to critically evaluate the good he is doing -- he is now personally invested in the product he is selling, and if he was to discover that the miracle cures he has been peddling for several years are nothing more than snake oil, that would mean accepting that he has been doing a bad thing for the last few years, and it would challenge his self-image as a good person.

    The parallel with Benny should be obvious. Benny is far more invested in his product than Tinga will ever be, and he will never ever be able to question himself, as he has lived for years off the backs of the dream he sells. The hate Benny receives is for the most part generated by him, although he is blind to the fact. He dismisses other people off-hand, and that's one of the biggest insults you can give a person -- treat someone with pure contempt, and you will make them hate you.
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  15. pensulo

    pensulo Member VIP member

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    It's not really a parallel, if you look at the products that he sells you do get what you pay for. Look at his premium site, he gives you polyglot interviews, anki decks and so forth. These are things that you can actually perceive whether or not you received. Your salesman says you get for example improved health, but you don't get jack. He also mentions that following his techniques will get you speaking in months not years, which isn't really defined - and probably the closest thing to being objectionable but I see he offers refunds so if people see that what he sells isn't what they thought no harm no foul.

    The issue with him I have is that his attempts to motivate are the ones that actually do harm. The product he sells pretty much does what you pay for, that I don't have an issue with. As for the dismissive attitude you received, obviously you were very offended but I wonder how many people prodded him about his techniques or his fluency? In another thread I mentioned Tae Kim, who was constantly met with doubt about his Japanese ability and people would continually present him with kanji until he failed being able to read one of them, thus proving (in their minds) he wasn't fluent. After time he got really, really bitter and I can hardly blame him for any reactions he had following. I don't know if that's the case with Benny, but I've seen criticisms of him for years. I'll try to find the thread I was talking about on another forum where people were questioning whether or not he's Irish and demanding proof (let's leave aside how presumptions this is on their parts that they deserve proof) as if he was Barack Obama and they were Birthers. Or maybe, he's just a tool who can't take criticism - that still doesn't make him a snake oil salesman.

    The impression I get here is people think he goes off becomes "fluent" in a language and goes "now you can too, for the price of only $9.99 per month". That's what he may be doing, I just personally don't see it. I've been following his blog on and off since about when he started it (back in 08 or 09) and he came across as just wanted to help, especially since for a long time was making money translating documents in his field of electronic engineering, not attempted to sell premium content based on magical techniques.

    EDIT: I would add that Steve Kaufman comes across more like the above example than Benny. Every other sentence from his mouth is LingQ - though I still kinda like his videos despite the incessant marketing.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2014
  16. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    Nope. His first product, the "Language Hacking Guide" promised to teach you how to learn any language, but when you read it, it's all very, very vague, and everything in the first two-thirds is accompanied by a promise that it will be explained later in the book with examples, and everything in the final third of the book tells you how you've already seen everything earlier in the book.

    His latest book is not much different. It does attempt to give more concrete advice... but it's all rubbish. (I've been reading a library copy over the last few weeks.) He advertises techniques, but there's nothing in the book. And the book constantly points you to his website. It's a bit like Dianetics -- people read it and believe they've been told something, but somehow they still have to pay more to understand it.

    Tinga will sell you a magnetiser or an ioniser, telling you it will aid your health. You will get a magnetiser or an ioniser.
    Benny will sell you interviews, anki decks and so forth, telling you it aid your language learning. You will get interviews, anki decks and so forth.

    If you want more information, ask, don't assume. I was attempting to discuss these things with Benny before he'd got that much coverage, while he was still relatively unknown and was only an amateur blogger making his money elsewhere. He was equal to the rest of us, but he wasn't interested in discussing then -- he was only ever interested in preaching the One True Benny Way.

    So while he's been preaching an unchanging message, those of us who engage in forums have been successfully challenging each other and slowly changing each others' way of thinking for years. Most of the average Joes on this forum and HTLAL have a wider understanding of the issues than him.

    Steve's definitely bought into his own myth too.
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  17. biTsar

    biTsar Active Member VIP member

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    You noticed ?
  18. pensulo

    pensulo Member VIP member

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    Since I really don't want to be acting as some sort of apologist for Benny because as I already mentioned we aren't exactly on the same page anyways I will let this be my final 2 cents :) I agree to one degree or another with the criticisms presented but seeing that the book and premium content he sells are both cheaper than a lot language learning tools out there and because I'm sure a lot of people will find his information useful and/or inspirational and feel that they got what they paid for, I can't be that harsh on him.

    EDIT:

    Sorry, I missed this initial segment. I don't feel that I made any assumptions, but I'm open to correction. I think I covered two possible grounds: he was continually harassed or he's simply a tool who can't take criticism. I didn't say either one was definitely the case so I cannot see where I made an assumption. Unless you're referring to the part where I mention him offending you personally? In which case I apologize, but it appeared in your posts thus far you were referencing yourself.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2014
  19. cm.1

    cm.1 Guest

    You could not have explained it better! :)
  20. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    While reading a thread on LingQ forum, Any Language in Six Months: Chris Lonsdale, (Lonsdale's definition of fluency seems to be 3K words and ability to communicate effortlessly within the narrow confines allowed by that small vocabulary), I came across an amusing term they use there: "Benny-fluency", which they define as between A1 and A2 on the CEFR scale. Maybe polydog should add that term below basic fluency, i.e. "Benny-fluent."
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