Do you have an exit plan for isolated vocabulary study?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Big_Dog, Jul 17, 2014.

  1. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    If you do isolated vocabulary study, like wordlists or SRS's, do you have a plan to wean yourself off it? I was surprised a few years back when I posted this in the now defunct anki forum that many people plan to continue this type of study for the rest or their lives. Please tell us what you plan to do about this here.
  2. luke

    luke Member VIP member

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    I've dabbled in SRS at various points. That fact alone means I've been weaned. The whole idea of SRS is to set you free.
  3. Iversen

    Iversen Member VIP member

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    I don't see any big problem in this - you'll automatically stop doing SRS and wordlists if you don't feel it is worth the effort. At some point the words you don't know yet are so rare and contrived that you feel your time could be spend on more relevant things, like weeding out grammatical errors or polishing your style. At that point you are also ready to read extensively and then you can add specialized vocabulary to your collection through literature or other sources. But even for an advanced learner it is a good idea to jot down unknown or 'interesting' words and expressions in a notebook or a piece of paper so that you get at least one repetition by looking your catch (which may represent several languages) up in the relevant dictionaries.
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  4. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    As Iversen said, I imagine I will in fact stop with a given deck once I feel I don't need it, at around the C1 level. However even then, I think it will be necessary to insure that I read a balanced variety of material to maintain my vocabulary knoweldge. Plus with wanting to learn or relearn other languages, it will simply be a matter of priorities. I'll never get rid of the deck though, because it represents a way back if I am unable to spend time maintaining a language for an extended period. The people who are probably stuck are those who stop short of a strong B2, not reaching the lexical threshold for reading, because they would otherwise have to be able to continue to find graded material to keep up a lesser knowledge.

    I don't actively study English vocabulary, although I do of course look up unfamiliar or vaguely known words from time to time. I would like to think my German reaches that level some day.

    The other issue is one of perfection, which I personally have to guard against. As Iversen has mentioned on HTLAL a number of times, the Pareto principle applies in some fashion. If you spend 80% of your time chasing perfection, then there is precious little time left over for anything else. Again a matter of priorities.
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2014
  5. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    My exit plan is a little valve marked "boredom". I've never used any flashcards or flashcard-style stuff for more than a couple of months at a time. I gave up on wordlists when I realised I was memorising the list, rathe than learning its contents.

    Like Iversen has said elsewhere, mnemonic techniques are just there to keep the word in your head until you learn it.

    If I'm preparing for a job in a specific field, I might go back to SRS to cram some vocabulary, but for the most part I've been happy to learn organically once I have a handle on the language.
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  6. tastyonions

    tastyonions Member VIP member

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    Same as Cainntear. Once I get bored with a learning tool, I quit using it.
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  7. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    I imagine that like many American drivers accustomed to driving for long periods of time on fairly well maintained roads which are not perpetually in a state of traffic jam, I find driving to be boring. But it gets me to exciting places fast. Same with Anki.

    Learning organically, i.e. extensive reading for the most part, can be moderately effective once reaching the lexical threshold of 98%, i.e. 15-20K words. But to get to attempt to get to 98% via extensive reading is from some studies, ineffective. It may be more exciting, but it is sloooooooow. This was the reason I started another thread, If You Don't Like Anki or Wordlists, then ... .

    Personally I'll take boring and fast means over slow and exciting means. The result is that I get more time to actually enjoy the exciting destination.

    While I don't view the constant craving for excitement 24/7 to be a character flaw since individual goals differ, I do view it as an artifact of our attention deficit digital culture.
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  8. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    An additional comment further to my previous one I would like to make is that as independent language learners we have a choice. Either use means that are fairly quick to acquire a substantial vocabulary, or use means that are slow.

    There are 2 ways that I have seen that can rather more quickly lead to fast acquisition:

    1) The consistent use of word lists, either digital or paper (Anki/GL/Iversen) for shorter periods of time per day, almost each and every day;

    or

    2) The use of extensive reading (ER) for MANY hours per day, almost each and every day for a LONG period.

    The choice of slow means is made by choosing either ER for shorter periods sporadically, or relying on non-systematic use of less intense, but more "fun" or "exciting" methods. This choice results as well when one does not consciously make a choice.

    While learners are free, based on their own goals and inclinations to choose either way, I think it is critical that we inform new less experienced learners that there is such a choice and what the consequences of choosing either way are.

    One can look through several years of postings by many users on HTLAL, who are highly intelligent and know a lot about learning language, but who have taken years and years to acquire a vocabulary sufficient to reach the lexical threshold, even if they were able to pass higher CEFR tests earlier by virtue of its lack of concentration on vocabulary size and its low bar for pass/fail. Many of those users finally realized that although they might have nailed the grammar and pronunciation, they they still lacked the vocabulary they needed. But it took them YEARS for that to dawn on them.
  9. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    When I read your multiple posts about the wonders of Anki, I can't help but feel that you are missing a vital point. It takes many hours of usage/exposure to assimilate each hour of vocabulary "learned" in isolation. That's why I try to keep this type of study under 25% of the time I spend with a language in the early stages. You need the remaining time to assimilate.

    And I just can't see using an SRS forever and ever. I learn languages to be able to use them, and SRS isn't normal language usage. Conversing, listening, reading and maybe even a little writing, but definitely not wordlists or SRS's. Those are just temporary tools for accomplishing my goals, and need to be discarded permanently just as soon as I am able.
  10. hrhenry

    hrhenry Member VIP member

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    This is pretty much how I feel about Anki in general. I can really only recall once when Anki was really useful to me - it was for an interpreting gig that I was not at all qualified for (a boxing match). I ended up cramming for BOTH English and Italian. And after the assignment was complete, I really didn't have much use for the vocabulary in either language.

    Learning organically tends to stick much better for me.

    R.
    ==
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  11. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    I always stipulate, just not in every post about Anki, that I don't use it, and neither should others, in isolation. I realize the title of this thread includes "isolated", but it is not representative of the way I and most people use it. Anki is always only part of my daily study, though on occasion it might be the only hour I put in, if I am pressed for time that day. But those days are rare.

    Initially I selected my vocabulary from courses I was using or going to use. So Anki learning got reinforced. Or now I am gathering vocab from a novel I am reading, which gets put into Anki and gets reinforced either later in the novel or when I reread it immediately after I am done with the first reading. Or with the Deutsche Welle website, I use their many articles for vocabulary sources, and which I both read then and at a later date. So those words get reinforced.

    As for other sources of vocabulary from lists for courses I don't plan to use, that is a weakness, because then I am depending on my general extensive/intensive reading and listening to reinforce same, though it might take a while to come across many words. But I actually do have a partial solution for that, which is putting example sentences on as many Anki cards as I can find them for. I sometimes spend time just stepping through parts of my deck in preview mode in the browse window, just to concentrate on sentences apart from regular Anki reviews.

    So again, my intent is for Anki to support other learning activities, and not be an end in itself. And as I said earlier in the thread, I would imagine stopping using a given deck once I reached a comfortable level, which for me will be the top end of the lexical threshold, i.e. 15-20K words, or about C1 (passive). This is in accordance with your own belief, which I share, that the best way to maintain a language is to get to C1 in it and then carry on with normal use of it. But if one stops short of that mark, then learning activities like Anki, will likely have to continue to be used for maintenance, even if at a less intense pace, in order not to backslide.

    What is lacking in modern learning materials is a graded progression of readers to take a learner to a very high level vocabulary wise. Even with German, which has many publishers of same, they mostly concentrate on A1 to B1, with a few offerings for B2. And unfortunately they are not nearly as good as the older style of readers of years past, with extensive glossaries and explanatory notes (though they have some coverage of that). So the learner must try to constantly find texts corresponding to their current level, which is not impossible, but difficult and somewhat time consuming, or just resort to mainly intensive reading to make random native materials comprehensive, which is again more time consuming and violates the advice to seek easier materials (i.e. n+1).
  12. Stelle

    Stelle Active Member VIP member

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    I make my own decks, adding only words that I want in my active vocabulary. I don't personally feel a need to drill vocabulary that I don't need during current conversations. I build passive vocabulary through reading and listening. Thanks to context, I can understand most new words.

    Given that my anki decks are carefully chosen and personalized, and that my Spanish deck takes me about 5-7 minutes to run through, I'll continue doing them indefinitely. Or at least until I don't.
  13. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    You say that as if it's a new thing. Graded readers were always a bit of a halfway house, providing neither genuine literature or genuine progressive grading.
    it's only now with computers that we would be able to build prooer progression through statistical methods, but programmed learning is out of fashion at the moment, so no-one wants to do it,
  14. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    By my definition, studying words in an SRS or list is "isolated vocabulary study". Like you, I never pull a list from a text book or a dictionary. In fact, these days I take all my words from production (conversation or writing) because I feel these are the words I'm most likely to need. But regardless of where I get them from, when I put them in anki, they're isolated. Spending a large percentage of my time using anki is a bad thing because it keeps me from using the language enough to assimilate all that vocabulary. Two more helpful things I've learned about anki:
    1) being good at anki doesn't mean I'm good at producing the vocabulary in real situations
    2) if I don't spend the majority of my time actually using the language, I won't even get very good at anki

    Sure, anki helps. But imo it's not silver bullet, at least not to the extent that you seem to imply in some of your posts. As I've said before, I'm jealous of people like Prof Arguellas and Luca who never do isolated vocabulary study and get tremendous results. The main thing they do that I don't is a lot of writing. It's the best of both worlds - they are using the language close to 100% of the time, and making great strides in vocabulary acquisition. I'm a little bit scared to try this, but it's tempting.
  15. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    I've learned /partially learned, 11K words in 13 1/2 months with Anki. For that purpose, it has been a silver bullet for me. Lots of polyglots, who are actually same to a high degree in their languages, have mainly used extensive reading past beginning courses to acquire the rest of their vocabulary. But as I indicated above, it takes A LOT of time and thus is relatively SLOW, unless one is able to devote a full-time effort for a long period, which most self-learners cannot do. Dr. Arguelles and Linguamor both said they read for several hours a day, and if you look at Linguamor's calculations as to how many new words one acquires an hour, it is less than for time spent with Iverson's word lists or Anki (don't know about GL).

    This again is the choice I discussed above. I choose to explicitly study vocabulary via Anki until reaching the lexical threshold of 15-20K words, after which I will switch to extensive reading alone, except for studying specialized thematic fields. And the reason I made this choice is that it is relatively fast and allows me to actually start reading for enjoyment and with minimal lookups far sooner than if I used ER.

    Even at the level I am at now, where new words are relatively low frequency ones, and it takes an awful lot of them to move the needle as to reading comprehension, I have been making great strides. I can read almost anything I come across, even in FAZ or the C level materials on Deutsche Welle with relatively few lookups. German Wiki pages on broad categories like German history or the C level reading material on DW like Sprachbar and Alltagsdeutch, that just a couple months ago were difficult to read, I now read with ease, and despite the fact I am only now attempting to make a more thorough revision of grammar. Part of the reason though is what Iversen mentioned regarding learning the smaller base words, which allows me to intuit the meaning of so many new longer words in context that I have never previously seen.

    Learning vocabulary as fast as possible with the minimum time spent doing so, allows me to get on with using the language passively to a very high level. Naturally I expect it to take years of reading to learn nuances of usage, the same with any method. Show me a method that is more time efficient regardless of whether it is is boring or fun, and I will strongly consider it. Which is why I am trying a hybrid method of Iversen lists at the beginning and Anki thereafter. (I actually started that today despite not being up to snuff association-wise and will report the results soon.)
  16. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    You mean something that ensures you practise the vocabulary, but does it widely varying contexts and inflections to prevent simple memorisation of individual forms? Something that tracks your proficiency with syntax and morphology, as well as plain old vocabulary? Something that actively identifies your weaknesses and teaches them out of you?

    Hmmm... now that would be handy, wouldn't it...?
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  17. Big_Dog

    Big_Dog Administrator Staff Member

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    Learning vocabulary in isolation is helpful, but having an anki deck with 11k words in it isn't nearly as impressive as having an active vocabulary of 5k words, imo. How many of those words can you easily use in conversation or writing? Learners who have used what you call the "slow" way to learn vocabulary know their words much better than if they had allowed anki to take up most of their study time.
    For long term results, any method that limits isolated vocabulary study to less that 25% will be better than what it sounds like you are doing. Sorry, I'm just guessing because I haven't been able to figure out what percentage of your time you are spending on anki. My arguments aren't so much against anki, or wordlists or any kind of isolated vocabulary study in general. My arguments are against over usage.
    You are such a tease:p
  18. Peregrinus

    Peregrinus Active Member

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    As I have said before, I am for now concentrating on passive skills. I can't hold a conversation if I can't understand speech, and I can't write about much if I can't read much. Activation is on my agenda, just not now, and I believe it will be faster to achieve same once having very good reading and listening comprehension.


    Regardless of what portion of my time I spend on Anki, its use is in support of other learning activities, and will come to an end eventually when my minimal vocabulary goal is reached (15-20K). And note that with my extensive use of phrases and sentences on cards, I am able to learn in meaningful context, which shorter segments of language are just as well as longer connected ones. (And though 25% may be your opinion, you can't really back it up by research on the ideal mix of time spent on activities, as opposed to some pedagogical dude's non-study based recommendations, can you? :) )

    Over usage? Did you read what I said above regarding my current reading comprehension? If that is the result of over usage, I wan't to keep overusing it! And I like my chances of of activating my German knowledge with a large vocabulary in a far shorter time than compared to someone who has focused equally on production and has only a meager vocabulary then having to bulk his vocab up to the level of the lexical threshold to be able to talk about a wide range of topics in depth.

    Over usage? I'll be able to stop using Anki if I wish in a few months and get on with using the language in extensive activities for the majority of my study time. While the slow and fun crowd will still have just barely gotten down the road on their YEARS long quest to attain a meaningful vocabulary, only after which will they be able to read and listen at my current level. Sure they may in the meantime be able to talk fluidly with their puny vocabulary about a limited range of topics to a shallow depth, but it won't change the fact that they can't get more than the gist of a newspaper article or TV show.

    The topic of this thread was whether Anki users have an exit plan. I've said repeatedly that I do, yet you keep focusing on current usage. Perhaps you don't believe me and think I'm some kind of Anki masochist. I can think of more alluring dominatrices.
  19. Cainntear

    Cainntear Active Member VIP member

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    "In context" can be misleading, because here you're learning in a context, one particular one, the same every time. Without exposure in multivarious unrelated contexts, your sentences are no better than individual word-for-word translations, as they never demonstrate the boundaries of use, only specific individual usages.

    The biggest problem with SRS is that if you want to practise in multiple contexts, you need multiple cards, but there's no way of telling Anki that they're the same core item.
  20. Iversen

    Iversen Member VIP member

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    If I don't understand a text then I can't learn words from it - at most make educated guesses about its meaning based on a few words here and there and the theme and role of the text if I know them. So the logical next step is to try to crack the code using dictionaries and grammars etc., and this results in a lot of new words. It would idiotic to forget them right away so I do something to remember them, and that's where wordlists come in handy. At a later stage I get tired of looking words up all over the place, and I start learning them bulkwise from a dictionary. At some even later stage I may use so much time on studying different subjects using my new language that I get enough input from that source, and I gradually stop making wordlists - though I still make notes when I find something new I want to remember.

    So what about context? In the beginning there is a context, but quite limited because I work my way at a snail's pace through a text - there isn't much context in 10-20 lines. At the other end there also is a context, but it takes time to get there. And during the wordlist phase there isn't one, but the ironical thing is that this phase is the one where I learn words faster than in any other phase, and I don't even miss that fabled context - or rather, there is ample context in the translations, the grammatical annotations, examples, in my associations and in the memories that pop up while I read through the columns in a dictionary. I don't need a love story too.

    That being said, I do wholeheartedly recommend active use of the your target languages, and because I don't like to be stuck in the middle of sentences during a conversation or not being able to understand a simple answer, this activity will for my part mostly be in the form of thinking and writing until I feel I'm ready. But it is necessary to be active in some way because the activity as such is conducive to keeping a language fresh and active. It is not really a question of saying fifteen sentences with each new word you have learnt - saying 15 sentences with 15 other words will have more or less the same effect. The basic problem is to train yourself to be able to drag words up to the surface from your hidden stores, and that's as much a global skill as it is a skill tied to individual words.
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